Wednesday, July 18, 2007

Well, Screw it, Im going all In

Which means of course, be warned, Sparkster is getting political again. Plus, its in celebration of some psychologist who decided to go out and win the World Series of Poker.

Anyway, anyway, where was I? Oh yes.

Is it possible to not support the war, but still support the troops handling the war. I can see computer screens clicking off, and X's being clicked in the right hand corner already.

I actually see both sides of the argument. If there is a percentage of the nation that does not support the war, there has to logically, be a percentage of that percentage that does not support the troops or dislikes soldiers and war in general. And, any time that there is a percentage that does not like soldiers and war, that has to be a sting to the morale of the soldiers, since a large majority of them volunteered for this service and had to understand that going to war, any war and being placed in harms way had to be a possibility.

The other side of course says, at least in this ducks mind, that while the idea of war is bad and the idea of this war is worse, the soldiers are not to blame for it and they should be lauded and honored for doing something that many of us would not want to do, whether it is a beat all end all War of the Worlds against Martians who want to blow up the entire planet from the core, or whether its fighting 3 guys in Luxembourg with Pea Shooters. The issues can be debated, but the people fighting for whatever cause was chosen should not be punished.

My, My, a social quandry if there ever was one. A moral one as well, because there has to be some part of what either side is saying that is hurting someone elses feelings, in the military or not.

I look at it this way myself, since I am in the camp of supporting the troops, but detesting this war (I know, I know, you are all shocked). I detest the President, have disagreed with 95% of the things that he has done in office and am happily counting the days until he and the rest of his support staff will vacate the premises. But, I do not wish him I'll will or harm. Yes, I call him an asshat, a moron, a knucklehead, a fuck up, all of those fun words. But, I do not want anyone to take a shot at him. This is mostly because he has a wife, and children and brothers and sisters and friends and parents that really really love him. No person should have to suffer through that. And while Cheeney is worse in my book, again, I dont want him to eat too many BLT's at lunch and have a stroke, because no matter how bad I personally think he is, he has loved ones who would miss him.

So, when I say, I don't support this war, but I support the troops, I mean I support the fact that each and every one of them comes home safe and sound to the families that love them. They are just doing what they have been told to do, and rightly or wrongly that is there job. And I suffer for the ones that have died, not because I think they have died in vain or for something that is unattainable, but just because they have died.

I was watching Nightline last night, and there were to seperate groups that were lobbying the Senators yesterday as they had there marathon session. The reporter asked one of the Vets for Freedom, who thinks the surge should continue until at least September, when they can make a better estimate of how things are going, what he thought about your own brothers in arms lobbying for a position that is so so opposite of yours. He said, well thats why I joined up in the first place, so he could have the power and freedom to disagree with me.

Agree, disagree, whatever?


Lisa Andel said...

Hi Sparky, I know exactly what you mean. I think if most people thought about it, they'd feel the same way. Unfortunately, I think a lot of relatives either believe in this war, or need to believe that thier loved ones are fighting for a just cause.

I think that doing your job to the best of your ability, regardless of the "boss's" ulterior motive, speaks for itself.

So yeah, the war can be wrong, but the men and women fighting it are still heroes for doing it.

Empress Bee (of the High Sea) said...

hi sparky. bee here. i understand your post and agree with most of it. one face it wrong, not most of the troops signed up, all of them did. i respect your right to dislike bush, of course i do. the point is sarge and i feel like it hurts the morale of the troops to talk badly about what they are doing. when sarge was in viet nam it happened to him too. he was called a baby killer. he carries the scars to this day. that is most of why he is as strong in his opinions i believe. you are a good man mr. duck and i think you are mostly right, but just that one thing, okay? still friends?

smiles, bee

Empress Bee (of the High Sea) said...

sorry, i meant one fact, not one face.

Wylie Kinson said...

My heart is with the troops because they're doing their jobs and that's the place they were sent. My heart is also with their families - waiting bravely for their loved ones to return home safe and sound.

My logic/anger/sensibilities are standing firmly against this war. I understand where Empress Bee's husband feelings lie and realize that it must be incredibly hard for troops to know that the public aren't 100% behind them -- but it's not THEIR fault that they were sent. Not THEIR fault that the current powers that be are asshats (to use your term, Spark - one which I agree with) so it IS possible, imo, to support the troops but not the war.

And oh yeah -- I'm calling in from Canada so y'all can just disregard my opinion anyway. ;D

The Gal Herself said...

This is a volunteer army. I feel about the soldiers the same way I feel about cops and firefighters -- thank God for anyone willing to go into harm's way on my behalf. Sincerely. The troops are aces with me.

In theory, I absolutely support engaging Afghanistan and I wasn't against the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein was genocidal, and I'm always against that. (Darfur, anyone?) THIS is what bothers me: We were lied to about the Iraq/Al Queda connection. Initially we didn't send enough troops in to be successful. We didn't bother to learn enough about Iraq's culture to anticipate the internal conflicts that resulted in civil war. Abu Gharib and Gitmo still make me sick. We aren't taking care of the valiant soldiers who have come back. I could probably go one, but then I'd start screaming.

Carol Anne said...

>>>THIS is what bothers me: We were lied to about the Iraq/Al Queda connection.<<<

This is what bothers me as well. Before the war as I listened to Colin Powell and George Tenet and the President speak I thought to myself everyone said after 9/11 why didn't we do something to stop them. I felt this was our chance to prevent a second 9/11. Knowing what I know now it breaks my heart to know that so many of our troops have died fighting in Iraq when there was no connection to Al Queda.

Sarge Charlie said...

Hi Mr Duck, I commend you in the gracious way you said what you said. It is tough when your political beliefs do not agree with those in power. However, they are elected to serve in the highest offices in this land. The office commands respect Let me see, Yale degree, Harvard MBA, successful business man, elected Governor of Texas, twice elected to be president of the United States, maybe he is an asshat, a moron, or knucklehead, you will decide that, I think not.
Enough said, we can agree to disagree on the qualities of our president.

Many people agree with me that there is a terror threat here in the home land, it has happened, you know when so I will not dwell on those facts. I agree with our President that it is better to kill them there not in Philadelphia, Pa. The soldiers involved in the war on terror, for the most part believe in their mission and believe they are protecting you by their actions.

The real problem as I see it is the fact that the endless drumbeat from your side of the Aisle is demoralizing our soldiers while they are in harms way. The congress has the power of the purse, if they want out of the war all they have to do is cut the funds. They do not have the political will to do that because it would end the power of the Democratic Party. Hence, the Dog and Pony Show they are involved in, with no hope of success. All the BS you are getting from people like your Congressman is just to appease their far left base. Maybe I should withdraw that statement, Murtha is so far out of reality that he would send the troops to Okinawa.

Again I commend you for taking on a tough subject, you did a good job.

InterstellarLass said...

I agree with you. Because my cousin is a Marine. And I support him and all the other soldiers, sailors, Marines and flyers that are over in that dust bowl doing their jobs. I admire them for their bravery and sacrifice. Sadly I think it's a wasted sacrifice because of how they are dying. I don't wish bad things to happen to the President. But I do think he should be charged, tried and convicted of treason. He's done bad things to this country. Dug us into a hole we won't get out of, even if we leave Iraq. He lead us based on lies and fear and taking advantage of the position. Like Nixon, he needs to get on a plane and never come back.

The Gal Herself said...

Can I comment again? Or is there a limit? The best way to support our troops is to have clearly-defined, well-understood objectives set before any boots hit the ground. The fact that many of the troops don't know how measure their success is demoralizing & confusing, too. (I've received letters from soldiers who have received my "care packages" c/o Operation Shoebox: If this is winnable, HOW? If it's not, why do we continue to waste our most precious treasure? As a war hero once testified to Congress during the Viet Nam years, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

Bond said...

SPARKY: Well stated and I agree 100%. I do not agree that this is like Vietnam. People are not out there treating our soldiers with outright distain that greeted the Viet Vets.

Having a resume of Ivy league and business success sounds nice, until you realize how much daddy did to make it all happen. No way he gets into the schools without dad. The business? Set up by dad and funded by dad's friends...

Sorry, he is an asshat and history will look back on him as one of our lesser Presidents.

Sparky Duck said...

Gal:comment all you want! You always bring a lot to the table

Bee:I tried to hedge a little bit when I wrote, but you are right, its an all volunteer army. My Bad.

Sarge:I tried to keep it above board, and I thank you for the kind words. Agreeing to disagree on anything is what debate is all about.

Lass:don't get me started on where I think this President should be spending the end of his term.

Bond:and most of the businesses failed. The only one to make money venture wise was the Rangers. Even the Royals manage to make money every year, so not a feat.

Christie O. said...

yes, definitely it is possible to support the troops and not the war. obviously i supported my brother-in-law, my sister-in-law and will continue to do so as my sister-in-law gets redeployed. i wasn't against the war at first either, until we (the american public) found out that we went in for many of the wrong reasons. now, i hate the fact that our men over there are feeling the disdain for the war; it obviously affects their morale, which in turn could affect their very survival and that scares me. But as long as this war goes on, I'll support the troops until the end.

Starrlight said...

I have one comment on Bush's "resume" C's get Degrees and he has more than a few business failures. And we won't even get started on the Bushisms..fool me once, shame on you......

I agree with you completely Sparky. My major concern now is that a rapid troop withdrawl seems to me like we are going to be completely screwing a lot of innocent Iraqi's. "Hi we came in a fucked a lot of shit up! We are leaving now! Bye Kthx!"

I think we have a certain amount of responsibility to those people and they deserve more than a repeat of the Nam era rooftop helicopter "evacuations."

But wtf do I know, I am a liberal after all....

the108 said...

Well, of course I will comment.

My husband is in the army and has expressed a great discust of our current administration and the war in Iraq. To this, the right reacts by telling us that we need to get the fuck out then. They question why he ever joined the military to begin with and basiclly take a big, fat dump on him.

The problem is that my soldier has no problem being in the military and defending our country. He has a problem with watching our administration lie to and manipulate our people and he has a problem with following direct orders that he considers to be unlawful as a result of the lies.

It's not the military... it's the WAR and his and my opinion that it is unjustified.

To go along with something this big, something that affects people's lives and sometimes takes them away when you disagree with or are unsure of the reasons... it's a big deal. You don't just jump in blindly to something like this without having a viewpoint or a little trust in the mission, which my hubby does not.

If he is going to end lives then he has to believe beyond any doubt that it is for good reason n good intentions an this is not one of those times. It doesn't make him bad, in fact... it makes him admirable to me that he doesn't just blindly follow along because he is falling into the stereotype.

I'm so sick of people telling him to just get out. I'm sick of people having no real argument or explanation when we ask for answers or a little backing to why they believe this is good. Instead we are just shouted at that it's all about terrorism and I think if this were actually true, then it would be far easier to justify this war.

Sarge and a lot of other right wingers like to say that Bush was elected twice and so no one should complain. Well.... the first eection is debateble and at any rate, ANYONE can be fooled and lied to and then learn their lesson. Being that Bush's approval rating is so far in the shitter, it would appear that people are cathing on and realizing that they made a mistake. That's why we have an approval rating. It is almost like a new election and it's pretty obvious that if her were running again tomorrow, he wouldn't be returning to the White House.

I hate that you just can't complain about your president or government anymore if you see things as being done wrong. The right keeps saying that we have to just o what they say and that they are always right but what exactly does that make us? Aren't we supposed to expect greatness and have a high standard for our country? Aren't we supposed to use our resources, like speaking out and campaigning for change against the lesser things? Isn't trying to better our country and it's policies being a good American?

At any rate... a soldier shouldn't just kill another human being unless he truly believes that what he or she is doing is for a good reason. You don't just shoot when you know it's wrong.

And also... I'm not understanding how anyone thinks that thr troops are being demoralized by stating that the war is without just cause. You think the troops don't already know this??? No ne is calling these soldiers baby killers. Everyone knows why they are over there. It sucks that they have to be in this situation but to voice that means that you are attacking them. It's all horseshit if you ask me.

People forget tht you are not identified by your country but instead, by what kind of person you are and what you do for humanity.

Am I weird for having little respect for people who don't think for themselves or who just blindly follow orders without considering the massive consequences of them?

Starrlight said...

*hugs Kyra*

I got bleeding heart liberal cooties on you :P

Sparky Duck said...

Im just glad you posted Kyra, because your whole fiasco/situation, whatever, is what inspired my musing on this difficult subject.

the108 said...

Sparky, lemme tell you about this shit. I left this comment stating that I felt bad that any soldier need be in a position to find ied's and then asked very nicely for the blog poster to give e a few reasons why she was of the opinion that this was for good cause. Then, I got an earful and got screetched at and things got personal and so I wrote a blog post out of anger that I soon removed and the blog post stated that I was not proud to be an American any more. I said that if I had the money, I would move to a country like Australia or Canada where they have little crime, exellent retirement benefits, socialized medicine, amazing educational opportunities.... you name it. Basically, I said that I would move to a country where the citizens were cared for and valued as human beings instead of their governments just trying to line their own personal pockets.

I also said that this just is not the same country it once was and that our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves right now.

Well, this did not go over well and for some reason, people took my opinions very personally as if it should have any affect on them whatsoever.

Before I noticed that my name was being run through themud and that I was being attacked by a seventy year old man as though we were still in high school, I had written an email privatly to the poster apologizing for hurting her feelings and trying to explain that while these are my beliefs, that I don't usually come of as so angry and hurtful and that I am having a rough time right now. It was very kind and eloquent and then they invited people to attack my nature because I attacked our government. It was weird.

Bad, Kyra!

Sparky Duck said...

I hate when it breaks down into attacking people as opposed to what they say or who they support. I am trying to be better at stopping that here. I just hope no one gets "heartsick" *rolls eyes* over the comments before i get to them.

FRIGGA said...

*Mostly* agree :-)